| Date: 2006-06-09 |
Username: ProfWilliams |
Helpful: 0 of 0 |
| You assume that Jesus was flogged with the flagella and not the flagra, but that is an assumption. Most criminals were scourged with the flagra. |
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| Date: 2006-06-09 |
Username: drj |
Helpful: 3 of 3 |
| If he was tried and punished by the Romans, it certainly wasn't as a common criminal, for whom the flagra was reserved. Moreover, none of the post-beating indications demonstrate such a severe punishment (e.g., he walks by himself, carries the cross by himelf in some accounts, is fully conscious on the cross, carries on conversations, etc.) Scourging by the flagra could kill a person (and sometimes did). Nothing in the gospels leads to the conclusion that Jesus was near death as a result of his scourging. |
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| Date: 2006-07-27 |
Username: drj |
Helpful: 1 of 1 |
| Hi Ti. Of course you're right. I don't mean to belittle the experience. In fact I was once held a "prisoner of war" in an African prison in 1978 and so I am acutely familiar with torture from the perspective of the person who is being beaten. I'm sure the experience was terrible, but I'm equally sure that Mel Gibson's portrayal of the incident was disproportionately gruesome. |
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| Date: 2006-08-11 |
Username: drj |
Helpful: 0 of 0 |
| Hi Matt, It has nothing to do with the subject of this website. E-mail me and I will be happy to share the details with you. |
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| Date: 2006-08-26 |
Username: drj |
Helpful: 1 of 1 |
| Hi. For some reason your name didn't appear. In any event, the material you present doesn't contradict antyhing that's been said. It's true that Jesus was beaten and I'm sure no one would want to go through what he went through. The issue is whether the beating was as severe as some people portray it, and the typical portrayal can be seen in Mel Gibson's The Passion, in which Jesus is beaten severely. There simply is no evidence for that. In your comment you note that Herod "tried mockery" and put a robe on him, Pilate "punished him by the scourge", and he was stripped and a crown of thorns placed on his head. All of this is included in my original comment, so we have no disagreements and I don't understand your reference to "false accusations". You have failed to deal with any of the issues raised (e.g., Jesus is apparently very conscious on the cross, some accounts say he carried the cross the entire way, none of the accounts mentions anything about Jesus being badly injured from the beatings, etc.). |
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| Date: 2006-08-26 |
Username: puglia |
Helpful: 0 of 1 |
| Ok I appologize. I guess i didnt think I would have to bring a definition out to prove my point. I thought you might look a little deeper. One of your main resources refers to none of the evangelist mentioning a scourged Jesus!! Thats not true! John 19:1, Mark 15:15, Matthew 27:26
Also your evidence to the contrary mentions as well a scourged Jesus!The Gospel of Nicodemus(part I 9:5)
scourge (skûrj) pronunciation
n.
1. A source of widespread dreadful affliction and devastation such as that caused by pestilence or war.
2. A means of inflicting severe suffering, vengeance, or punishment.
3. A whip used to inflict punishment.
tr.v., scourged, scourg·ing, scourg·es.
1. To afflict with severe or widespread suffering and devastation; ravage.
2. To chastise severely; excoriate.
!!!!!!**************3. To flog.***************!!!!!!
So back to your response. Yes, I did deal with the issue raised. Many references were made to a severely beaten or SCOURGED Jesus! Read the accounts yourself dont just take anothers word on the Bible. Its not like there are not any available. Then promote YOUR views based on the knowledge you have aquired. I'm not meaning to upset you. I just want you to know that your words are misleading many people when they are not accurate. You made the forum for response, and thats what I am doing.
Go In Peace |
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| Date: 2006-08-26 |
Username: drj |
Helpful: 1 of 1 |
| Hi Puglia. You're not upsetting me at all. Comments such as yours help everyone do a better job at getting at the truth, so I welcome all comments. It makes me go back and triple check everything I write, so please have no hesitations in disagreeing with me. Occasionally someone raises a very good point and I modify one of the positions taken, so I am open to new input. Or I edit the comment to take into account some issue that obviously wasn't clear enough before. So thank you. Anyhow, in this case, scourge and flog are used interchangibly in the Bible, and you are using the word scourge and I am using the word flog. For example, you quote John 19:1 - "flogged" is used in the New International Version, scourged is used in the New American Standard, etc. In the Worldwide English they simply say: "Pilate took Jesus and had him beaten". In Mark 15:15 "flogged" is used in New International, "scourged" is used in New American Standard, etc. So there is no consistency in the use of the names flogged, scourged, or beaten. Suffice it to say we both agree that he was beaten and hit with a whip. The issue at hand is what consequence this had. How badly beaten was he? None of the sources you quote (including Nicodemus) say the word "seriously" or "severely" or "badly". Go back and read them. I don't have the space to reproduce them here, but you can go to earlychristianwritings.com and find them all. Lacking an adverb in any of the accounts, we must infer the severity of the beating from the consequences. After being beaten, Jesus can walk, talk, think, and in some cases he is strong enough to carry a cross. He talks to Pilate, carries on conversations with people along the route, talks to his crucifiers, and even carries on conversations while on the cross. No Gospel writer comments on Jesus' physical state after the flogging, as we see in the description of the martyrdom of Polycarp. So there is no evidence whatsoever that Jesus was severely beaten. Beaten, yes. Beaten to the point of losing consciousness? No. Beaten to the point of being unable to walk? No. Broken Bones? Not that we know of. Beaten to the point of being unable to talk or think? No. |
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| Date: 2006-08-27 |
Username: puglia |
Helpful: 0 of 1 |
| You can choose to belive whatever you want. But I didnt use any of the other versions of the Bible. I used the King James. Any how the word Still means SEVERELY BEATEN! No matter how you try to dance around it they did describe how badly Jesus was beaten, by using the word scourged! I cant make you change your mind thats not my intention. My hope is that everyone else who reads this will realize the truth. Besides no-one has ever argued that he could'nt walk or talk. Even the movie the Passion shows that he was still able to do those things. I'm sure it wasnt pleasent for him to do but he did. I'm sure you have suffered great pain at one time and been able to do things you thought impossible. Try to disprove what you like, It will still take FAITH to believe! |
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| Date: 2006-10-06 |
Username: O.B.Jective |
Helpful: 0 of 0 |
| Hi all,
Puglia, in the definitions you gave, #3 is 'a whip used to inflict punishment'. It doesn't say 'severe punishment'. So while scourge CAN mean severely punish(and often does), it doesn't automatically assume
so. I will admit that when my wife & I saw "Passion", my reaction was exactly that they had overdone the gore, based on what I'd read in the Bible. I never got the impression that he'd been beaten nearly to death, having to be dragged away, leaving a trail of blood.
Thanks folks....just wanted to say my piece....I enjoy the site! |
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| Date: 2006-10-26 |
Username: puglia |
Helpful: 0 of 1 |
| O.B., like i said anyone is entitled to their own opinion. It just seems that you might be doin a little dance to affirm your beliefs. The definition is the definition. You can pick it apart and twist it any way you choose. The definition still remains the same. On one hand the definition says devistation caused by war. On the other just a whip used to inflict punishment. Well in my view if it means devistation caused by war the infliction by the whip must have been horrific! |
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| Date: 2006-11-03 |
Username: jplant |
Helpful: 1 of 1 |
| I agree that the brutality was over played in the movie 'The Passion', but have we forgotton that 3 hrs later Jesus died without having to have his bones broken? |
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| Date: 2006-11-03 |
Username: drj |
Helpful: 0 of 0 |
| Hi J. Could the beatings have weakened him enough to kill him in 3 hours? Maybe. But if that's the case, why didn't the two thieves/zealots who accompanied him also die. They would have received the same pre-execution scourging, and surely they were in worse shape than Jesus, having been arrested for a true crime and having spent time in prison. So if they are still alive and have to have their legs broken to hasten their death, why would you believe that Jesus would be in a weaker state? I don't think it's realistic to expect them to be in good shape and for Jesus to die. As a side bar, many scholars believe that it is Jesus' unlikely death after 3 hours and the subsequent skepticism that prompts John (19:34), the last of the gospels written, to include the story of the spear in the side, which is completely absent from the other three earlier gospels. John is trying to say "Hey. See. He really was dead!" But again, my point is that if the 2 thieves/zealots were not dead (who undoubtedly were treated much worse than Jesus and were living under worse conditions), then Jesus should not have been dead. |
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| Date: 2006-11-05 |
Username: jplant |
Helpful: 1 of 1 |
| Doesn't it state in Luke 23:16 that Pilot's plan was to chastise him and then release him? Jesus was flogged AND crucified. The others crucified at the same time were not. It was NOT common procedure to flogg and then crucify. The flogging was a ploy by Pilot to try to get him released, but the crowd wouldn't buy it. Luke makes this clear. |
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| Date: 2006-11-05 |
Username: jplant |
Helpful: 0 of 0 |
| I think Jesus was in a weaker state b/c it was not standard protocol to flogg prisoners before crucifixion. According to Luke 23:16 Pilot planned to flogg Jesus and then release him, hoping that that brutal punishment would appease the crowd. I don't believe the other prisoners were flogged. |
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| Date: 2006-11-07 |
Username: drj |
Helpful: 1 of 1 |
| Hi J. Luke 23:16 ("I will therefore chastise him, and release him.") is followed by 23:23-24 ("But they [the Jews] were urgent with loud voices, asking that he might be crucified. And their voices prevailed. And Pilate gave sentence that what they asked for should be done.") which shows clearly that in Luke Jesus is not "chastised" at all, but rather led away to be crucified. Luke says nothing about the other prisoners being flogged. |
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| Date: 2007-03-08 |
Username: mojoala |
Helpful: 2 of 2 |
| No one has yet to mention Isaiah 52:14 According as many were appalled at thee--so marred was his visage unlike that of a man, and his form unlike that of the sons of men--
The underlying Hebrew shows that he was not even recognizable as a man because he was so marred.
and go further into the next chapter Isaiah 53:5 But he was wounded because of our transgressions, he was crushed because of our iniquities: the chastisement of our welfare was upon him, and with his stripes we were healed.
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| Date: 2007-03-09 |
Username: drj |
Helpful: 2 of 3 |
| Hi Mojoala. It's not clear that the Isaiah passages are meant to apply to the crucified Jesus, although it's certainly possible. But the main issue vis-a-vis Isaiah is that it is not applicable to Jesus at all, much less the crucified Jesus. Certain select passages were taken from Isaiah to make the case that Jesus was the sufffering servant, however, a look at the complete passage reveals that it doesn't apply to Jesus. I cover this at length in my book Jesus Who, but here's a brief summary of why Jesus is not the suffering servant described in Isaiah - (1) He was hardly despised and isolated (53:3). In fact, he had thousands of adherents. (2) As far as we know, he never had any illnesses or pains (53:4). (3) He certainly wasn’t regarded as “diseased”, or stricken, or afflicted (53:4). (4) He wasn’t persecuted (53:7). He was arrested, but that hardly qualifies as persecuted. (5) And he certainly wasn’t silent (53:8). (5) He was never in prison (53:9), although he was arrested. (6) He wasn’t imprisoned/ arrested for the transgression of the Jews (53:9), but rather for his claim to be the King of the Jews. (7) His grave/tomb certainly wasn’t with the wicked (53:9), but rather with the rich, since he was buried in the tomb of Joseph of Arimathea. These 7 issues show that Jesus does not fit the description of the suffering servant in Isaiah.
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| Date: 2007-04-19 |
Username: rabbiray1 |
Helpful: 0 of 4 |
| You must look at this through David's eyes as he wrote in the Psalms 22 Yeshuah was beaten so noone could reconize him even had his beard ripped out by the roots. |
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| Date: 2007-09-28 |
Username: rambux |
Helpful: 2 of 3 |
| Obviously, the medieval Church had a purpose in trying to 'up the anti' in Jesis' sufferings. However, until the forth century (when Constantine banned crucifiction), the trend wold have been to the opposite. Crucifiction was seen as a shameful thing, and the gospel accounts would have been a combination of theological purpose, and at least telling some elements of the bare truth.
I don't think Jesus' inability to carry his cross would have been the kind of detail that gets made up - it was unusual, and contrary to popular belief, the gospels (even Mark) do not dwell on the juicy details of the crucifiction to the extent that some people think.
The WM refers to how, in John, Jesus carries the cross himself. However, John's purpose was theological - in John, Jesus is 'God incarnate' and is always in control. A Jesus who collapses runs counter to such an idea.
Scholars are more inclined to go for the synoptics (Matthew, Mark & Luke) on this one.
I think Jesus' inability to carry the cross stems from a fact which has hardly ever commented on: the crown of thorns. The crown of thorns would have caused a number of puncture marks to the head. As a large amount of blood goes to the head, it would not have taken much of a puncture to cause a serious enough blood loss to make Jesus unable to carry the cross.
In the end, I think it's fair to say that Jesus' flogging wold have been similar to that of any other crucifiction victim.
I think the severity of movies like Mel Gibson's stem partially from the fact that today, we live in a very soft, cushy society. We scarcely have any concept of physical suffering.
A crucifiction - ANY crucifiction - would have been an ugly scene. It was a hideous torture, and some victims took several days to die. Having said that, I don't Jesus sufferings would have been any more severe than that of any other crucified person. |
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| Date: 2007-10-11 |
Username: anorak |
Helpful: 0 of 3 |
| Of course the son (or rather the "SUN") dies for us. The Sun gives of its heat and energy so that plants may grow, the earth is heated to suitable tempreatures and enlightens the dark. All stars die at some point. Ancient people were not stupid, they knew this. The Crown of Thorns are sun rays. The church believed that a saviour must suffer to make the stakes as high as they could be. The Lost Gospel of Peter states (chap4) "And they brought two malefactors, and they cricufied the Lord between them. BUT HE HELD HIS PEACE, AS THOUGH HAVING NO PAIN" The Gnostic believed that the SPIRIT of the Christ descended into Jesus' body after birth, and left it before he was crucified. Of course the spirit felt no pain...it wasn't there. No pain, No Christ, No Chrisianity (as the church believes christianity should be). Jesus being cruicified between two theives is also symbolic. The thief on the LEFT represents regret of the past, while the RIGHT represents ignorance of the future. (oh and rabbiray...there was no DAVID) |
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| Date: 2008-02-17 |
Username: Pantera |
Helpful: 1 of 1 |
| Rabbiray - There's nothing in Psalm 22 about beating anyone beyond recognition or pulling out a beard. Those are Mel Gibson fantasies. And why is it so important that an immortal, omnipotent god feigns being a human and pretends to be tortured to death, only to reanimate himself and fly back to his abode in the clouds? It seems like a mummery to insult the absolute human certainty of suffering and death, both of which he presumably deigned. |
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