| Date: 2006-05-23 |
Username: drj |
Helpful: 5 of 6 |
| Most of the paintings of Jesus and his family can be dated from the 8th Century and onwards. These are based on myths and legends. |
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| Date: 2006-08-27 |
Username: jimfoxy |
Helpful: 3 of 3 |
| I think this is a fair summary of the issue. It seems to me that if the Bible intended for us to believe that Mary and Joseph never had normal marital relations that an entirely different set of terms would have been used. So, I think that your points are well taken. The idea that Joseph was an elderly widower seems to be a late tradition. I don't see any mention of it in scripture. |
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| Date: 2007-12-06 |
Username: Pantera |
Helpful: 2 of 3 |
| Yeshu's brothers were named Yaa'kov ("haTzaddik"- The Righteous), Yoset, Shimeon ("haToma' - the Twin) and Yehuda. His sisters were named Miriyam (Mary) and Shlomet (Salome) in Aramaic.
Yaa'kov, or James, sometimes called Oblias ("bulwark"), was the Mebekkar or leader of the Jesus cult until his death in 62CE. Yaa'kov was said to have taken the vows of a Nazarene, allowing his beard and hair to grow. After Yaa'kov's assassination, another of Jesus' brothers, Shimeon (Simon) assumed the mantle of leadership. This dynastic succession continued (through the line of Yoset) until circa 140 CE.
Judah, the last "Jewish Christian or Ebionite" bishop, outlived the Bar Kochba rebellion, (132-135 C.E.) until the eleventh year of the reign of Antoniunus Pius. The designation appended to his name, "Kuriakos" (kyriakos), indicates that Bishop Judah was descended from the family of Jesus.
Eusebius reports that the Desposyni [the Master's relatives], all descendants of Jesus, survived to become leaders of various "Christian" churches, according to a strict dynastic succession. Malachai Martin writes that Pope Silvster the First ordered Jesus' descendants hunted down and killed to ensure the Roman Papal primacy.
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| Date: 2007-12-08 |
Username: gkhaas |
Helpful: 2 of 2 |
| Thanks, Pantera. You have any citations -- names of works, and coordinates (page number, whatever) within the work-- for these very specific assertions? |
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| Date: 2007-12-09 |
Username: drj |
Helpful: 2 of 2 |
| Hi GK and Pantera. The gospels tell us only that Jesus had sisters (Matthew 13:56) but doesn't say how many. The Protoevangelium of James says there were 2 and gives them the names Melkha and Eskha. Epiphanius in the 4th century also refers to them but gives them the names Mary and Salome and claims they are half sisters. Another 4th century work, History of Joseph, gives them the names Lydia and Assia. |
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| Date: 2007-12-10 |
Username: Pantera |
Helpful: 3 of 3 |
| Yes, gkhass ____ Jesus’ brothers are of course mentioned in several Bible verses. Matthew 12:46, Luke 8:19, and Mark 3:31 say that Jesus’ mother and brothers came to see him. The Bible tells us that Jesus had four brothers: James, Joseph, Simon, and Judas (Matthew 13:55). The Bible also tells us that Jesus had sisters, but they are not named or numbered in the Bible (Matthew 13:56). In John 7:1-10, His brothers go on to the festival while Jesus stays behind. In Acts 1:14, His brothers and mother are described as praying with the disciples. Later, in Galatians 1:19, it mentions that James was Jesus’ brother. The most natural conclusion of these passages is to interpret that Jesus had actual blood siblings. Eusebius confirms that James was Jesus' genetic brother "in the flesh."
The Desposyni are mentioned by Hegissipus (c.110-c.180) in a lost work, fragments of which are are quoted by Eusebius in Historia Ecclesiae, 3.20. Among them is the following note, ascribed to the reign of Domitian (81-96 CE):
" There still survived of the kindred of the Lord the grandsons of Judas, who according to the flesh was called his brother. These were informed against, as belonging to the family of David, and Evocatus brought them before Domitian Caesar: for that emperor dreaded the advent of Christ, as Herod had done. So he asked them whether they were of the family of David; and they confessed they were. Next he asked them what property they had, or how much money they possessed. They both replied that they had only 9000 denaria between them, each of them owning half that sum; but even this they said they did not possess in cash, but as the estimated value of some land, consisting of thirty-nine plethra only, out of which they had to pay the dues, and that they supported themselves by their own labour. And then they began to hold out their hands, exhibiting, as proof of their manual labour, the roughness of their skin, and the corns raised on their hands by constant work. Being then asked concerning Christ and His kingdom, what was its nature, and when and where it was to appear, they returned answer that it was not of this world, nor of the earth, but belonging to the sphere of heaven and angels, and would make its appearance at the end of time, when He shall come in glory, and judge living and dead, and render to every one according to the course of his life. Thereupon Domitian passed no condemnation upon them, but treated them with contempt, as too mean for notice, and let them go free. At the same time he issued a command, and put a stop to the persecution against the Church. When they were released they became leaders of the churches, as was natural in the case of those who were at once martyrs and of the kindred of the Lord. And, after the establishment of peace to the Church, their lives were prolonged to the reign of Trajan."
Fr. Malachi Martin, a member of the Vatican advisory council and a Vatican librarian, noted in "The Decline and Fall of the Roman Church" that:
"...A meeting between Sylvester (Pope Sylvester I) and the Jewish Christian leaders took place in 318 C.E....The vital interview was not, as far as we know, recorded but the issues were very well known and it is probable that Joses, the oldest of the Christian Jews, spoke on behalf of the Desposyni and the rest."
"...That most hallowed name, Desposyni, had been respected by all believers in the first century and a half of Christian history. The word literally meant, in Greek, "belonging to the Lord." It was reserved uniquely for Jesus' blood relatives. Every part of the ancient Jewish Christian church had always been governed by a desposynos, and each of them carried one of the names traditional in Jesus' family---Zachary, Joseph, John, James, Joses, Simeon, Matthias, and so on. But no one was ever called Jesus. Neither Sylvester nor any of the thirty-two popes before him, nor those succeeding him, ever emphasized that there were at least three well-known and authentic lines of legitimate blood descent from Jesus' own family..."
"...The Desposyni demanded that Sylvester, who now had Roman patronage, revoke his confirmation of the authority of the Greek Christian bishops at Jerusalem, in Antioch, in Ephesus, and in Alexandria, and to name desposynos bishops to take their place. They asked that the practice of sending cash to Jerusalem as the mother church be resumed... These blood relatives of Christ demanded the reintroduction of the Law [Torah], which included the Sabbath and the Holy Day system of Feasts and New Moons of the Bible. Sylvester dismissed their claims and said that, from now on, the mother church was in Rome and he insisted they accept the Greek bishops to lead them."
"...It was the last known discussion between the Jewish Christians of the original mother church and the non-Jewish Christians of the new “Christian” church. By his adaptation, Silvester, backed by Constantine, had decided that the message of Jesus was to be couched in Western terms by Western minds on an imperial model.
The Jewish Christians had no place in such a church structure. They managed to survive until the first decades of the fifth century. Then, one by one, they disappear.... But most of them die---by the sword (Roman garrisons hunted them as outlaws), by starvation (they were deprived of their small farms and could not or would not adapt themselves to life in the big cities), by the attrition of zero birthrate....The desposyni have ceased to exist. Everywhere, the Roman Pope commands respect and exercises authority." (Martin, Putnam & Sons, 1981)
I'll have to check my notes on Jesus' sisters and get back to you |
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| Date: 2007-12-22 |
Username: rabbiray1 |
Helpful: 0 of 4 |
| Yeshuah was the only child of Mairiam but not of Yesuf.
Yesuf was 35 years of age but Mairiam was only 14 years of age...... |
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| Date: 2008-01-04 |
Username: drj |
Helpful: 2 of 2 |
| Hi Rabbi. There is nothing in the gospels that indicates Joseph's age. Indeed, it was the custom for men at that time to be married before the age of 20. The idea that Joseph was an "old" or "older man" is part of the mythology that grew up in order to defend the perpetual virginity of Mary and to de-emphasize the important of the family of Jesus who had their own sect and who competed with the other early Christian sects for power and members. If they accepted the idea that Jesus had blood brothers it would have been expected, in those dynastic days, that the surviving blood relatives would lead the movement. But the non Jewish movement did not have blood relatives in it, and hence the effort to create the "old" and "widower" stories about Joseph and the changes in the gospel accounts to remove the influence and involvement of his family. Having said that, if you have some evidence for what you're saying, we'd certainly like to look at it. |
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| Date: 2008-01-05 |
Username: Pantera |
Helpful: 2 of 2 |
| rabbiray1 - "Rebbenu," you say Miriam was 14? That's almost an old maid. ;)
Back then the age of consent was set at the first niddah, which could be as young as nine (the prophet Muhahhad - PBBH- had a wife exactly that age). "Yeshuah was the only child of Mairiam?" What about Yeshu's brothers Yoset, Yaa'cov, Yudah("ha-Toma"), and Shimeon? To perpetuate Mary's status as "ever virgin," the Roman Catholic Church has long asserted they were actually step-bothers, the sons of Yusef by a previous marriage. I've never seen convincing proof, however. What's your source for Yusef and Miriam's ages? There's been much speculation on this. Got citations? |
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| Date: 2008-01-17 |
Username: rabbiray1 |
Helpful: 0 of 1 |
| I was raised in a Jewish home and Miriam would have had to first go through her "bat-mitsvah" before she could have been given in marriage and a girl will go to her "bat-mitsvah" at age 13 |
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| Date: 2008-03-23 |
Username: rambux |
Helpful: 1 of 1 |
| The notion of Mary and Jospeh being perpetually chaste (and Jesus therefore having no brothers and sisters) is, of course, a myth perpetuated by the Church of Rome.
Interesting how the author quotes scripture here without question (in contrast to the bit about the empty tomb and Jesus living in Nazareth). Not that I think hie's wrong in this case, it just reveals an inconsistency in his treatment of topics. |
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| Date: 2008-04-27 |
Username: rambux |
Helpful: 0 of 1 |
| I think the author of the article needs to be more precise in his article about who he is addressing. Many established traditions of Christianity have ALWAYS accepted that Jesus had sibblings. |
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| Date: 2008-05-28 |
Username: OldScribe |
Helpful: 1 of 1 |
| I cover this issue in depth ay http://www.historian.net/jesfam.html
The first stratum material clearly shows someone born in the normal manner and with at least 6 younger siblings. |
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| Date: 2008-05-28 |
Username: DavidGibbs |
Helpful: 1 of 1 |
| All four Gospels as well as the writings of Paul say that Jesus had brothers and sisters. There is no getting away from that. However, if you believe this, the Roman Church says that you are going to roast in hall. They have the keys to the kingdom of Heaven and they will not let you in if you disagree with them. So you are given a choice. Mary's birth canal was a one way street. No brothers, no sisters, no sinful sexual intercourse. Sex is sinful unless you have it with the Holy Ghost. Mary was without sin. |
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| Date: 2008-07-31 |
Username: nikoladdimitrov |
Helpful: 1 of 1 |
| Of course Jesus was not the only child - He was the firstborn child of Joseph and Mary. After Jesus, they had several other children - boys and girls. Please find more info about Jesus at the Life of Jesus web site. |
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| Date: 2008-08-02 |
Username: Pantera |
Helpful: 0 of 0 |
| DavidGibbs - The Church of Rome also says the Holy Spirit impregnated Miriam magically, through her auditory canal (the left one, I think). "Eary", isn't it? Rome may have they keys, but the door is not locked. Never was. |
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| Date: 2009-07-13 |
Username: LadySidhe |
Helpful: 1 of 1 |
| I find it interesting that the more fundamentalist groups insist upon this "perpetual virginity" idea. According to the bible, God said "Go forth and multiply." Seems pretty straightforward to me. It was Saul/Paul who had a bug in his ear about sex, and modern christianity is directly descended from the teachings of that misogynistic nutball. |
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